Go Back OFN Forums > Fabrication > Hotrod Fabrication

Hotrod Fabrication Hotrod Fabrication


Hotrod Fabrication Hotrod Fabrication

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #841  
Old 05-30-2017, 02:45 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
I also want to share a major fail from the day. Just after I pulled in, a bright orange '07 Lamborghini Gallardo pulled up behind me. I've always been a major fan of Lamborghinis. I even toured the factory in Italy a number of years ago. So before we moved to the grid, I snapped a few photos, including this one of my rear wheel with the front of the Lamborghini in the background. At the time I took the photo I thought it was just a cool juxtaposition of muscle vs. exotic, but it sort of foreshadowed what was to come.



As the Lamborghini was about half way through it's second or third run, heading toward the grid of cars waiting for their next run, the front driver wheel suffered catastrophic failure. The 5 spokes broke off at the center and the car slammed to the ground on it's rotor. As it skidded to a stop, the wheel and tire rolled off at speed, flying toward the grid of waiting cars. By stroke of luck, it veered around, rolling full speed past the crowd of onlookers and eventually slamming into an aircraft hanger a few hundred yards from where it launched.

Thankfully no one was hurt. It could have been so much worse if this happened on a canyon road or highway or if that tire had decided to follow just a slightly different path into people or other cars.







I took a look at the failed wheel and while "Lamborghini" was cast into the back side, I can only guess this was a China knock off. You can buy these black chrome wheels on eBay for around $1k each. Buyer beware!!!
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 05-30-2017 at 02:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #842  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:12 PM
R.DesJardin's Avatar
R.DesJardin R.DesJardin is offline
Designer & Builder
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Clarkston, WA
Posts: 385
You are at where I call the 90% build phase zone. Everything is fully functional, you proved it out this last weekend. Now you spend the rest of your life making changes in the 10% area, there will always be something else. You can never get to 100% done unless you sell it. That's not gonna happen. Going from the classis straight line stance and to a more balanced suspension package will be a whole new build. The current stance reminds me of all the kids in the mid-80's with Nova's cruising the streets. I was rolling in a 1970 Challenger, setup the same way, fats in the back and skinnies in the front.
Carry on.
__________________
Need, Design, Build, Use, repeat........
http://www.radesignsproducts.com/
Reply With Quote
  #843  
Old 06-21-2017, 07:06 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Rory, you've pretty well hit the nail on the head, both in terms of project stage and the stance of the car. I am gearing up for some changes that will re-situate it, but it's going to be a few weeks before I have anything to show.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #844  
Old 06-26-2017, 06:41 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
In March 2012 (5+ years ago) I posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBandit View Post
Got a package yesterday - a set of Hotchkis 1.5" drop leafs with a rate that's "matched" to work well with the 600lb/in springs I'm putting up front. I found these "used" for a reasonable price. The previous owner put them on his Camaro for mock-up, but never drove the car with them, so everything is fresh. He also threw in some 1/2" aluminum lowering blocks, but I don't plan to use them. If I decide to go lower, I'll use steel blocks.

After studying the photos from autocross, it was obvious the rearend was not doing it's fare share of the work. With stiffer springs and swaybar up front, all the weight goes to the front outside tire in a turn due to the mismatch in roll stiffness. So I decided it was time to finally install the Hotchkis springs out back.

First, off with the OE-spec multileafs and slide-a-link traction bars.



And the new springs in.



The good news is they did drop the car by about 1.5in.



The bad news is they did drop the car by about 1.5in... and the tires no longer have any clearance.



Looking inside, I've got about 1in to the inner fenderwell while the outside is touching both the rolled lip and further inside the quarter panel. By some coincidence, both driver & passenger sides have about the same 1in of clearance and similar amount of interference at the outside.



Lifting the tire, that 1in of clearance goes away pretty quickly on the inside and opens up the outside clearance. Not a lot of wiggle room in here with 275s (measure 11-1/8 section width at the bulge)





So it looks like I'm going to need some new wheels and tires with a better fitting offset. I have been wanting to get larger diameter wheels so I can step into a better set of tires, but I have to admit finding wheels is a challenge. Selection isn't very good on 1pcs wheels with enough offset for the Nova, and I don't have the budget for 2 or 3pc wheels with custom offsets. To compound that there aren't many wheel styles I like and larger dia wheels really take some getting used to visually. The search is on!
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #845  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:50 AM
entropy's Avatar
entropy entropy is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 95-miles from the center of Oregon.
Posts: 8,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBandit View Post
To compound that there aren't many wheel styles I like and larger dia wheels really take some getting used to visually. The search is on!
I wish you all the best in this search!

I'm in the same boat with a 57-Bird.

E
__________________
When did empirical knowledge get replaced by a theoretical education?

Reply With Quote
  #846  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:31 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Are you upsizing also? Seems like tire manufacturers are focused on 18"+ these days in anything wider than a 195. Availability seems to be going down for 17". What size wheels & tires are you looking to run?

My challenge is finding wheels with sufficient offset. Seems like most muscle cars will accept 0mm offset wheels so there are a ton on the market, but the back of my Nova needs a lot of offset (+19mm or so) to have any chance of fitting a 275. I could get wheels intended for a late model (i.e. current generation Camaro) with around +40mm offset, then use a 3/4" thick wheel adapter to get the right offset overall, but I don't like the idea of using wheel adapters or the lack of dish on the wheels (depending on wheel style).

There are a few wheels out there in a 10-12mm offset that would probably work okay with a 255. I may go that route.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #847  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:56 PM
entropy's Avatar
entropy entropy is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 95-miles from the center of Oregon.
Posts: 8,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBandit View Post
Are you upsizing also? Seems like tire manufacturers are focused on 18"+ these days in anything wider than a 195. Availability seems to be going down for 17". What size wheels & tires are you looking to run?

My challenge is finding wheels with sufficient offset. Seems like most muscle cars will accept 0mm offset wheels so there are a ton on the market, but the back of my Nova needs a lot of offset (+19mm or so) to have any chance of fitting a 275. I could get wheels intended for a late model (i.e. current generation Camaro) with around +40mm offset, then use a 3/4" thick wheel adapter to get the right offset overall, but I don't like the idea of using wheel adapters or the lack of dish on the wheels (depending on wheel style).

There are a few wheels out there in a 10-12mm offset that would probably work okay with a 255. I may go that route.
the Bird is sitting on 205/75R-14...
White walls.
Wheel wise anything is a step up and I'm thinking this for a wheel But I'm really limited on what will fit and I cant get to carried away with the tire profile or it will look silly.

E
__________________
When did empirical knowledge get replaced by a theoretical education?

Reply With Quote
  #848  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:09 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Wheel shopping sucks. I thought it would be fun to pick out new wheels, but it's like the cost, quality, and speed triad: look, fitment, cost - pick two! Meanwhile the car sits again... ugh.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #849  
Old 06-27-2017, 05:34 PM
alwaysFlOoReD's Avatar
alwaysFlOoReD alwaysFlOoReD is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Red Deer,AB Canada
Posts: 704
If you're OK with Painted here is some links I saved for myself.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Wheel-...5-x-8,218.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedw...8308#answerbox

http://www.rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/02/Steelies/
Reply With Quote
  #850  
Old 06-29-2017, 06:56 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Thanks for the links. I was looking a lot at that tire calculator. It's pretty useful info.

Last night had just a few minutes to take measurements, so I quickly attached a straightedge to the wheel mounting surface and grabbed a few relevant points.



The passenger side measured 6-3/4" WMS to the inside, 4-3/4" to the outside. The driver's side was 7" WMS to the inside, 4-5/8" to the outside. The least width is 11-1/2" so if I want a reasonable amount of clearance I will probably have to stick to a 255 or smaller.

Does anyone know of a good rule of thumb or advice for minimum sidewall clearance? I'm looking at 255/40R18 or 255/45/18 which have section width of 10.3". I was thinking inside clearance may be more important than outside since the loaded tire will move toward the inside in a corner and the other tire will drop away somewhat.

*EDIT* Came across one source that said 1/2" to the outside and 3/4" to the inside. I can't quite get there, but could get close if I dial it in with shims.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 06-29-2017 at 07:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #851  
Old 06-29-2017, 07:36 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Been doing some number crunching and it seems like getting 255s in there is going to take just the right offset and quite a bit of it. 27mm offset on the driver's side would give me .538" outside clearance and .787" inside clearance. The passenger side wants 22.5mm offset to get .486" outside clearance and 0.714" inside.

One option is to get a wheel intended for a 5th gen Camaro. I found a style I like with +32mm offset and I could use relatively thin wheel spacers (3/16" drv., 3/8" pass.) to get each side where I want it. One thing I like about using a wheel with extra offset then adding spacers is that if I upgrade the brakes down the road, I wont have to worry so much about the new brakes pushing the wheels out. And if I have rubbing on one side or the other, I can adjust the offset

However those will have a 120mm bolt pattern (BP) instead of a 120.65/4.75in. I do not want mismatched BP; each stud would be off it's hole center by about 0.013in which to me is unacceptable. But I did come across this jig for redrilling the axle flange which could take care of that situation. Throw some new, slightly longer ARP studs in there and I'd be in business.



Link here: http://www.rottenleonard.com/Menu.html

I guess I'll have to crunch the numbers on this and see if it makes sense both financially and from a fitment perspective.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 06-29-2017 at 07:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #852  
Old 06-30-2017, 11:02 AM
juicedz4's Avatar
juicedz4 juicedz4 is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 519
What about a set of Diamond Racing wheels? They arent super cool, but they arent bad for steelies either. And you can get pretty much any size and offset you want. Might be a good "for now" option.

Dan
Reply With Quote
  #853  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:15 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
I'd like to go to an 18" and stick with an aluminum wheel to keep weight down. I've been pouring over options for the last month while the car is sitting out the prime cruising/autocross season on jack stands. I don't think it's a good idea to continue driving on the old tires (13 years old to be exact) and I found both axle seals, the pinion seal, and rear cover are leaking, so I need to do a bit of a refresh on the rearend along with wheels and tires. It's a 12bolt with 3.73s and a posi, stock c-clip axles, and drum brakes.

My preferred wheel is an 18" Rally with a traditional step lip. I have found a few manufacturers of 1pc cast versions. Here is a summary of my findings:

Rev 107 in gray/diamond cut lip or fully polished +0offset only 18x7 18x8 18x9 (none of these will fit in the rear)


Vision 55 18x8.5 in -6, +10, +32, +38mm, 18x9.5+0mm


American Legend Cruiser 18x7 +6, 18x8 +0, 18x9 +6mm


Of those the I prefer the Rev 107s, but none of the offsets would work in the back. The Vision 55 comes in higher offsets so I ordered a set of +10 and +32mm, assuming I would use 1/4" spacer in the back to bring that +32 closer to +25. The cost was about $750 including center caps. Further since the +32 only comes with a 5x120mm bolt pattern instead of 5x4.75, I assumed I would either modify the wheel or the axle to get a matching bolt pattern (adding another couple hundred dollars to the cost, total about $1k). I was willing to go through that trouble and incremental cost if they looked right, but when they arrived I found that while the +10 had a complete step lip design, the +32 had much narrower lip and didn't look right/matched. I decided not to buy them because they wouldn't match front to rear. Here are photos:







That was a big disappointment because the +10 version of the wheel looked good, but the lip on the +32mm version ruined them for me. I also didn't really like how dark the centers were.

So at this point I have thought about a number of options. My first thought was to run the +10mm offset in the rear, but if I run a 255 my tire sidewall would be almost line-on with the inside of my quarter panel and would probably rub. The math is as follows: 10" tire section width divided by two is 5" from center to outside. Offset of +10mm is +0.393", so 5" minus 0.393" = 4.6in compared with 4.625" minimum measured distance from the mounting surface to the inside of the quarter panel. I think that's just too close. I could drop to a 245 tire and add roughly 3/16" clearance, but that is still too tight and I want more tire than that. I think this option is out due to lack of clearance.

Another option is to go with custom 2pc wheels. Circle Racing makes a very nice 2pc billet rally wheel with a stepped lip. American Racing and US Mags also have billet rally wheels with smooth lips, but I really like the traditional step lip. Cost for the Circle Racing billet rallies with center caps would be about $2,000 for a set including center caps. This route would enable custom offsets front and rear.

Another option I've been kicking around is narrowing the rear to allow the use of more widely available low/no offset 1pc wheels that have a little more dish to them. If I did this, I would use Moser or Strange ends that accept the larger Ford bearings and eliminate the c-clips. That would give me the benefits of new higher strength axles with bigger bearings and ease of R&R, plus if I decide to change wheels later I might have better luck getting something off the shelf. It hinges on the assumption that a low offset wheel would work for the front; I need to do the math on that still. Assuming I did the narrowing myself, I would have to get a set of alignment pucks and an alignment bar. This involves doing considerably more work on my end. Here is how the costs pan out for the two above options.



So despite the cost of custom axles tools and parts, the overall cost of the narrowing approach is a bit lower since 1pc cast-in-China wheels are so much cheaper than billet 2pc wheels made in the USA. Pros: stronger axles, eliminate c-clip more dish to the wheels, likely more availability to change wheel styles down the road Cons: work/risk involved in narrowing the rear, China-cast wheels, likely extended time with the car down.

Hmm. Then there is this other problem of going through all that to end up with just a 255 tires. That brings me to another option: minitub. DSE makes some nice ready-stamped wheel housings for this application that should accommodate a 305, but there are some caveats. My current leaf springs would become the limiting factor because in stock form they are splayed out at the shackle end and are only about 1/2" further in than the stock wheeltubs. To make use of the minitub space, I would have to relocate/offset the shackle to make the leaf springs parallel, which also means needing to narrow the fuel tank, or I would have to ditch the leaf springs altogether and use a link suspension. Total snowball! Pros: end up with a big tire Cons: car down for a very long time (at my pace), high cost and time effort, likely to snowball further.

As evidenced by this post, I am in full analysis-paralysis mode. Do I leave the rear and suspension alone and buy expensive 2pc wheels with 245 front 255 rear (or maybe match 255/255 front/rear if it fits)? Do I narrow the rear with stronger axles and use inexpensive 1pc cast wheels? Or do I put a ton of time and money into the car letting things snowball with a minitub and maybe still end up narrowing the rear and using 2pc wheels to make everything 100% awesome?
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
  #854  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:30 PM
entropy's Avatar
entropy entropy is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 95-miles from the center of Oregon.
Posts: 8,329
If you are building a driver then do as little as possible.

If you are going (EVER) to compete in anything then measure twice and cut that body work out of the way!
Then cut the axle then get the Wheels (off the shelf) you want wrap them in
rubbers and complete cutting the sheet-metal you missed out of the way and
weld it up a bit of paint and good to go

E
__________________
When did empirical knowledge get replaced by a theoretical education?

Reply With Quote
  #855  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:33 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Oh and I forgot to mention yet another option: put it back to the way it was and buy some new BF Radial TAs. Pros: looks right, cheap, inexpensive, back on the road quickly Cons: poor cornering performance, no room to upgrade brakes down the road, mismatched front/rear spring rates
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.

Last edited by TheBandit; 08-07-2017 at 07:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #856  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:44 PM
entropy's Avatar
entropy entropy is offline
Master Fabricator
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 95-miles from the center of Oregon.
Posts: 8,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBandit View Post
Oh and I forgot to mention yet another option: put it back to the way it was and buy some new BF Radial TAs. Pros: looks right, cheap, inexpensive, back on the road quickly Cons: poor cornering performance, no room to upgrade brakes down the road, mismatched front/rear spring rates
You can't adjust the spring rates without changing wheels?

E
__________________
When did empirical knowledge get replaced by a theoretical education?

Reply With Quote
  #857  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:54 PM
TheBandit's Avatar
TheBandit TheBandit is offline
Instagram @chevyhotrodder
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ventura County CA
Posts: 4,353
Yes that's yet another option. But I am pretty set on lowering the car and getting some modern treads, so I hate to throw any more time or money at the old combo than I have to.

If I do mini tub, the max width 18" rally wheel off the shelf that I can find is 9.5 and I would be limited to a 295 on that width. 305 requires a 10" wheel minimum. Even the custom 2pc wheels from Circle Racing only go up to 9.5" for traditional step lip, but I could get them in a soft lip 10" wide.
__________________
Clint

Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:20 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS
Copyright 2012, Offroad Fabrication Network